The World of Urusei Yatsura's Lum
Miscellaneous => General Discussion => Topic started by: UruseiNeo on November 28, 2008, 01:35:34 AM
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Again, I believe the anime laws explain that too... Something about how blood rushes to their noses instead of cheeks or something. I do know that the tissues in the nose are easy to damage that other tissue (I'm guessing cause the tissue is thiner?) so that's a logical (though in real life unlikely) explanation.
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So, we're going to just write it off as "oh, it's just a cartoon"?
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I guess that they needed something diferent...
For example... a romantic situation... they blush... and normally if you see someones panties (girls obviously) your normal reaction is to blush of embarasment... for seeing it (well most of the times) but to make things easier in manga they went with the nose bleed... and I guess it become a pattern... to manga and anime...
At least thats what I think... this is not based in any real facts... XD
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normally if you see someones panties (girls obviously)
you say that like you had to confirm boys don't wear panties XD
So, we're going to just write it off as "oh, it's just a cartoon"?
I feel insulted!
It's not a cartoon, it's an anime! XD lol
yeah, pretty much
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It was a manga before it was an anime.
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well a cartoon isn't a manga either. It's even further away from a manga than it is from an anime.
I don't think there are any cartoons that started as manga, maybe but I can't think of any.
I'm sorry, why did you point this out exactly?
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I don't know, but they can ALL ultimately be called "cartoons" based on which definition of cartoon you use.
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My defenition of cartoon is the things that come in newspapers... XD
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Cartoon
–noun
1. a sketch or drawing, usually humorous, as in a newspaper or periodical, symbolizing, satirizing, or caricaturing some action, subject, or person of popular interest.
2. comic strip.
3. animated cartoon.
4. Fine Arts. a full-scale design for a picture, ornamental motif or pattern, or the like, to be transferred to a fresco, tapestry, etc. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cartoon)
Gotta love dictionary.com.
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unfortunately I've failed to see anime in that definition. An anime is:
–noun
a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sexuality.
You know, there's something about these two definitions that look very different to me O.O
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Cartoon
3. animated cartoon.
You do realise there's something wrong with that, right?
It's like explaining a leafed tree is a tree with leaves....
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at first I thought that was directed at me...
... was it?
cause I thought, at first, you were pointing out "animated"
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No, I'm pointing at the actual discription that appears in Dictionary.com (posted by sidzero).
Saying that a cartoon is an animated cartoon is something that just doesn't make sence....
Normally one shouldn't define something using itself.
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except in Eureka 7's case where the constantly say "I am me" (I recall anyway)
You know, looking over these two definitions, anime seems to have much more depth to it than cartoons do.
You could almost (i said ALMOST, don't bug me about this later) almost say that a cartoon is a TYPE of anime, instead of the other way around.
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Yeah, it is a little odd. But I suppose referring to one definition in another definition does work.
And an "animated cartoon," using one of the previous definitions for cartoon, certainly covers an Anime, which if you look into the etymology of "Anime" refers to an "animation".
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I will repeat that an anime is highly stylized, contains violence (real violence not just coyote style violence) and sexuality.
These of which cartoons rarely cover.
An anime is more realistic in many ways. In a cartoon, most people have only 3 fingers (plus thumb) per hand and there clothes and hair don't really move. In anime, characters have all their fingers and their hair and clothes move VERY realistically.
In a cartoon, eyes are, most of the time, dots (sometimes within the white circle). Anime characters have actual lenses.
The placement of shadows is also a common advantage to anime as a lot of cartoons don't seem to cast shadows.
One of the most important things is that anime originates from japan. All the best stuff comes from japan (figuratively speaking). It is only recently that companies have begun to create shows that have these anime features but aren't considered anime (such as ben 10).
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Your idea of a cartoon is extremely limited.
So you're saying such cartoons as "Snow White" (which inspired the entire Japanese anime thing in the FIRST place) aren't cartoons?
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Comic book --> Manga...
Animated Cartoons --> Anime...
It's all about prespective I guess... Probably kids in the USA when seeing Sponge Bob... they say its a nice cartoon... But kids in Japan think its a nice anime...
Show a clip or episode of anime to someone that doesn't know what anime is and he will ask you something like... "what's the name of this cartoons?"
Btw, what the heck is this >>> :bulp: XD
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Your idea of a cartoon is extremely limited.
So you're saying such cartoons as "Snow White" (which inspired the entire Japanese anime thing in the FIRST place) aren't cartoons?
Okay, that's a misrepresentation of my words.
At what point did I say that Snow White wasn't a cartoon? I think even you could understand that Snow White is indeed a cartoon.
What you failed to comprehend is that I said RARELY and I even underlined it so you would see it but apparently that didn't work.
How Snow White does lack some of the points I made earlier such as the lack of proper shadowing.
Now, Disney movies such as Snow White DO have a higher quality (movement, appearance, etc) than most of the other cartoons I'm referring too. But that's just it... it's a Disney MOVIE. Movie tend to have more detail to them as it is only one film where as a show has about a hundred episodes to make.
Edit:
I just remembered another cartoon quality that I don't recall seeing in anime.
Objects that aren't intended to move during the scene looking like they are painting to the background
(like a stack of dishes) where as objects that will eventually move in someway stand out more (like the arm of a knight statue that will wing down)
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I still don't get why you think animes aren't cartoons. It seems like you think they're something wholly different just because they have a Japanese name and come from Japan. If we called cartoons from Canada something different, would they no longer be cartoons? What if we called cartoons from France something different? And what about animes that are more like what you describe as qualities that anime specifically doesn't have... such as Tetsuwan Atom (just one example)?
My point is that animes are cartoons, but only certain cartoons are anime. I just don't get why you seem to disagree.
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Again, you misrepresent my words. A cartoon made in Canada is still a cartoon, it has all the qualities of a cartoon just as a cartoon made in America does.
My point is that anime has qualities that most cartoons don't and vice versa.
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So anime isn't a series of sequential art displayed at a speed that gives the illusion of motion? Is that what you're saying? Because that's what a cartoon (of the animated variety) is.
You're just biased against cartoons that aren't Japanese. That's discrimination. ;)
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once again... misrepresentation -_-'''
anyone can figure out that both cartoons and anime are a sequence of pictures played fast etc.
I didn't say that animations not made in japan aren't anime. I'd like to say that Ben 10 is an anime cause it has all the features of one. (The only difference is that Ben 10 wasn't dubbed in japanese originally)
If you're saying that anime is a type of cartoon, then what type of cartoon are shows like "The Simpsons" or "Family Guy" what type of cartoons are these?
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They're just cartoons.
Think of it this way... Punk is a type of music. Punk is Rock music, but not all rock music is Punk. The Sex Pistols are a punk band, which makes them a type of rock band. Aerosmith is a rock band that is not a punk band. Aerosmith doesn't have to be any specific subgenre of rock music to be rock, but someone does qualify them as a subgenre, that doesn't mean they're not still rock.
Same concept, only apply it to cartoons.
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Punk is rock music? 0.0
anyways, the music pyramid, according to you, would be:
      music
    /     \
   /       \
  rock     others
 /   \
Punk others(?)
so as you can see, this graph(?) illustrates the music example you gave quite well.
but for cartoons and anime... well I can't even picture it but I'm gonna try:
        cartoon
        /   \
      anime ???
hmmm... there's a problem... how about this:
TV show -------------------
/ | \ | |
/ | \ | |
anime real cartoon 3D Others(If I missed any)
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Except CGI and Anime both fall under cartoons (and genres can be combined, example: FF7: Advent Children). And cartoons are not exclusively television shows, as there are cartoon movies. What you don't seem to understand is that Anime is nothing more than the Japanese word for "Animated Cartoon". Ask your Japanese teacher, since you say you're studying it in school. Western notations of anime being something wholly different from western cartoons is just a result of the current trend in "Oooh, it's Japanese, that means it's cool" that we've had for the past decade and a half or so.
But it's rather obvious you're just not going to accept logic in this case, so let's please move on.
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Dear Sidzero...
TV shows was merely the term I chose to use for the top of the pyramid as I could not think of another. Referring to how anime is "Japanese that makes it cool" this is not so. There are plenty of anime shows that were made by western people.
This brings us back to my previous question. If a show such as Urusei Yatsura and Ranma 1/2 are classified as anime, a subcategory of cartoon, what is the subcategory of shows such as The Simpsons and Family Guy?
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It's like sidzero said, they don't have a subcategory. They're just cartoons.
Let me say that while I agree on the fact that anime really is cartoons, actually calling it cartoons makes me feel weird. We all know animes have much better animations and quality compared to regular cartoons.
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What Kroptik said... yeah. They're just cartoons.
Now can we move on? Or do you insist on continuing this pointless debate that's not going to get anyone anywhere because everyone involved seems to have already made their opinions and is either convinced of their correctness, or just too stubborn to change their mind?
The whole fact that there IS a debate on this matter is stupid.
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actually calling it cartoons makes me feel weird. We all know animes have much better animations and quality compared to regular cartoons.
thank you, exactly ^_^
Dear Sidzero...
The fact that the word "cartoon" is NOWHERE on the page for the definition of Anime means plenty.
Here is a much much better way of looking at it that I think most people will like:
       animation
       /     \
     anime  cartoon
(Ignoring additional types) I think it should be nothing more complicated than this.
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Now that you've had your last word on the matter, can we move on?
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we were talking about nosebleeds XD okay so what haven't we covered that hasn't already been explained by the anime laws?
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How off topic can we get? Next thing you know, we'll be discussing who played the best James Bond. I thought we were talking about... you know... character discussion and defining.
PS: Sean Connery
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Oh... Is it over?
I was having fun watching you argue... XD
P.S: Sean Connery The Best...
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Yeah, I was having fun too ^_^
Anyways, before the topic on nosebleeds we were on Shinobu's strength and I commented that it doesn't have to make sense.
Sid replied with "ignore just cause it's a cartoon?" and I jokingly said "how insulting, it's not a cartoon it's an anime" so that's how that started.
So back to the topic, we done on Shinobu's strength?
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Nosebleeds ...
In manga (and obviously anime too), it's iconic of an excited (probably sexually) reaction. There are plenty of others: the drop-of-water alongside the head as an indication of nervousness, the pratfall "take", etc. Look in Scott McCloud's book "Understanding Comics" (I don't have my copy in front of me); pretty sure that's where I saw these explained.
Hope that helps. :*)
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Arguments like that aren't fun when the same things keep getting said. Repetition is boring.
But yeah... are we just going to ignore it cause it's a cartoon (or an anime for you particular types)? There's nothing in the anime or the manga that gives any sort of explanation, but the fact that Shinobu is often referred to as looking like Kintaro suggests, to me at least, that they might be related somehow. Considering Kintaro was famous for his strength, I think it's a legitimate possibility.
I have a copy of Understanding Comics sitting on my shelf, if you'd like me to look up the symbolism.
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I wouldn't call it "ignoring it" because being an anime/manga is its own explanation.
There are tons of other things that make even less sense than her strength. How can youth be transferred by Ran? Why is it that no matter how much pain is inflicted on Ataru, he always seems to recover? Where does SAKURA get HER physical strength?
All this can be and should be explained by the 100th anime law "anything and everything CAN happen"
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Perhaps I just prefer to find deeper explanation than writing it off to some rule of anime. I'm the type of person that likes things to make sense. Considering I'm looking into these things for more than just trying to understand the anime (and considering what I'm doing with my own reimagining), I think looking beyond those so-called rules is acceptable.
BTW, The nosebleed symbolism thing isn't in Understanding Comics, and it isn't in his later book Making Comics either. I know I've seen it covered somewhere in one of my books, but I have far too many for me to look through them all for one thing. Especially something as general knowledge as "In anime, a nosebleed is a symbol that's far more publicly acceptable than drawing an erect phallus, though they both symbolize the same thing".
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At least two of those things Neo said could be explained without resorting to anime laws. :P
1) Ran sucking youth: just because she says youth it doesn't mean necessarily that she has to suck it from young people, she could simply mean sucking her energy. Ran's an alien, we don't know how her body works inside, but we can all tell it's not like humans.
2) Sakura's figure: There are people that, no matter how much they eat, never seem to gain a pound. I speak for experience, because Im like that myself. If you're taking about her physique and not her "slimness", then that could be heritage. Remember we never see Sakura's parents in the anime, all we see is her uncle.
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Perhaps I just prefer to find deeper explanation than writing it off to some rule of anime. I'm the type of person that likes things to make sense.
Unfortunately it's impossible for anyone to provide explanations for anime events such as the time traveling, and how a bunch of water springs can change the shape of a human into animals or even the opposite sex!
Demons, digital worlds, aliens, flying, magic, etc.
These are all things that exist in the world of fiction, such as anime. Fiction contains materials that don't exist in the real world. It is BECAUSE the don't exist in the real world that they cannot be explained... for the most part anyway.
You will never find a true explanation.
2) Sakura's figure: There are people that, no matter how much they eat, never seem to gain a pound. I speak for experience, because Im like that myself. If you're taking about her physique and not her "slimness", then that could be heritage. Remember we never see Sakura's parents in the anime, all we see is her uncle.
I said physical strength, not figure
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Ran is also an alien. Even more so, she's the alien equivalent of an energy-sucking vampire. If you go by the common Eastern belief in Qi (or Ki, or Chi, depending on who translates it), it's easily explainable in that she drains her victim's Qi.
Sakura isn't abnormally strong (at least not that I've ever seen). Her only abnormalities are her spiritual power (again goes into Eastern beliefs) and her bottomless pit of a stomach. The latter, really, can only be explained (at least to the degree it goes) with anime laws. Though I suppose it's possible to have such a high metabolism that she would NEED that much food, and some sort of strange stomach acid that allows her to digest it all instantaneously. In my own story, I'll be leaving her (and Cherry's) ability to eat as much as she can in one sitting out.
Ataru's immortality is also unexplainable without "anime laws". Personally, I'm just writing it off as a side effect of his curse (the reason why he has such bad luck), rather than as an anime rule.
Time travel is a common science fiction element. The sheer number of explanations provided throughout science fiction dating all the way back to H. G. Wells' "The Time Machine" can give any number of explanations. The way I've seen it work in UY, however, suggests that Oni have the technology to create wormholes in spacetime that affect not just space (as is common in science fiction), but time as well.
The cursed springs explain themselves. They're cursed. Granted, it assumes a belief in magic, but that's really not that uncommon, even in reality. I mean how many people believe that a man can walk on water, raise the dead, and turn water into wine, regardless of how he was able to do it?
I'm not saying we can't allow for some creative licence. If everything had to be purely scientific reality, we wouldn't have any of the best stories that have been written through the ages. But I do think there needs to be SOME sort of explanation for why and how these things work beyond just "Oh, it's a cartoon, anything is possible", even if that explanation is magical or science fiction. But I want to note, that if it is magical or science fiction, then it has to be reasonable based on the context of the setting of the story.
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I've seen Sakura have strength in manga before. There was one chapter about some school game... there were heavy iron paddles? both Shinobu and Sakura were holding the paddles like they were made of feathers while the men were having trouble.
Anyways, we've been off topic for a while.
This topic was intended to discuss the PERSONALITIES of characters. Basically, it's psychologically defining them, I guess.
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Yes, I remember that story. But if you recall, Ataru was also able to wield the paddle. Ataru, by no means, has any sort of extraordinary strength (at least not any when he's not being perverted). Really, that particular story was hard to explain. Other than that, I've never seen Sakura display any abnormal amount of strength, so I see it more of an exception rather than the rule.
We may be off topic, but at least we're on something that's relevant to the topic (as in: we're actually discussing the characters again).
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Well I've pretty offered all I could *sigh* (at least on this specific topic)
It's not that I really cared what the explanation was... but I figured if I could convince you that there was no explanation needed, it wouldn't bug you as much ^_^
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No chance of that happening.
I need to understand all this stuff so that I can write it properly, remember?
But that's just me (you wouldn't believe the lengths I go to for my work), moving on...
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BTW, The nosebleed symbolism thing isn't in Understanding Comics, and it isn't in his later book Making Comics either. I know I've seen it covered somewhere in one of my books .... Especially something as general knowledge as "In anime, a nosebleed is a symbol that's far more publicly acceptable than drawing an erect phallus, though they both symbolize the same thing".
Thanks for the look-up. Don't have access to the book right here (I'm at my friendly local Library while computer is taking a dirt nap). Not really sure where I saw it then, but I done see'd it somewheres 'r other... ;)
Sanka!
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No problem looking it up. I have enough reference stuff just sitting around that I've nothing better to do with it. I wouldn't even try to list books that cover the symbolism used in anime, because it's covered in just about any decent, generalized "how-to-do anime and manga" book there is.
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Sidzero's theory has a lot going for it. xD
If nothing else, I got creative license going for me.
Just one more thing about gaydars: only GLBT have it because it's kind of our "tool" to find people that understand us and won't judge us.
So much for fairness and equality, huh? To say someone can't do, or have, something cause they're straight is discrimination. And isn't it a little hypocritical to say you develop gaydar so you can find people who won't judge you, when that's exactly what your gaydar is doing... judging people? It's prejudice either way, and isn't that something we should ALL be fighting?
But if we take this conversation much further down this path, I assure you, it's going to get ugly. So perhaps we should take it away from judging characters as gay or straight when really, it's irrelevant. The rest of you can discuss gay and straight all you want, but I'm staying away from it now. I've had my last word on the matter.
Excuse me? I don't "judge" people whether their orientation is. Like I'm not afraid of being robbed if I'm near to a group of black people. I get along with people that aren't on my "gaydar" and trust me, I don't judge people on the way they look and/or talk. If I did, I would be such an hypocritical a$$! Almost every straight people acuse other people of being gay just for the way they act and dress. Of course there are "butchy" lesbians and "girly" gay guys but NOT every gay people are that way and many straight men are "girly" men. I guess the society wants men to be "machos latinos" and the women to be "barbie girls".
About UY, I am not the first person to talk about homosexual "issues" on the Anime. Anyone that watched the Anime or read the Manga must have understood some of the GLBT references. Ran and Benten's kiss, Ryuu, Nagisa and Shinobu, Ataru & Mendou when Mendou transformed into a girl and Ataru transformed into a girl, too, Chibi's crossdressing. To be honest, I think that RT is a very open-minded person and knows someone really close to her that is related to GLBT.
I assure you that if the conversation gets ugly it won't be because of me, Sidzero. I'm a moderator and it doesn't mean that I'm the only one that can curse. It means that I MUST avoid the conversations to go offtopic and to avoid possible fights between members and censure non-allowed content.
About the Cartoon = Anime conversation...
Anime is VERY VERY VERY different from cartoons. The way they look, their storylines, etc. I can only find a few of similar things about these: they're drawings. They show up on TV.
Cartoons usually are for little kids untill they're 10 or 12 years old. After that age, they lean more to Anime because most Anime isn't childish as cartoons are. Newspapers' cartoons are critizing what's going on on the World and are for grown-up people, not for kids.
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Anime is VERY VERY VERY different from cartoons. The way they look, their storylines, etc. I can only find a few of similar things about these: they're drawings. They show up on TV.
Cartoons usually are for little kids untill they're 10 or 12 years old. After that age, they lean more to Anime because most Anime isn't childish as cartoons are. Newspapers' cartoons are critizing what's going on on the World and are for grown-up people, not for kids.
_/-\o_ thank you very much ^_^
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You're welcome. I'm just "fighting" for my opinions. ^^
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Excuse me? I don't "judge" people whether their orientation is.
Actually, yes you do. You determine whether or not a person is gay or straight or somewhere in between based on intuition. That is a judgment. Whether or not you act on that judgment is a different matter. People judging people is natural human behavior. Call it sizing them up. Call it prejudice. Call it stereotyping. Call it whatever you want, it's a social defense mechanism. It isn't right or wrong. It's how we act based on those judgments that is right or wrong, and that only because we make these judgments without fact.
I guess the society wants men to be "machos latinos" and the women to be "barbie girls".
Social stereotypes are something I've been fighting my whole life. I think the world needs to stop dividing people as Black and White, Gay and Straight, Man and Woman, or whatever other idiotic lines we draw to divide us from one another, and just see all people for what we are... Human Beings. As much as I hate it, unfortunately, I also have to take a realistic take on it, and understand that it's human nature to draw these dividing lines, and even if we got over the popular prejudices, we'd just end up hating each other over stupid things such as the size of our earlobes or something.
To be honest, I think that RT is a very open-minded person and knows someone really close to her that is related to GLBT.
It's possible, but it's also possible that she's not, and that all these references (and the fact that they're treated as jokes) could be just the opposite. Personally, I wouldn't say either way without knowing the truth.
I assure you that if the conversation gets ugly it won't be because of me
What I meant by the conversation getting ugly is that there are too many people who are far too sensitive to such matters, and just as many who are far too insensitive to such matters, and someone is bound to offend someone else, even if they use logic and reason to back up their perspectives. I'd rather just avoid that, because it's likely to be me offending someone. And really, I don't mean to offend anyone, but I know that the truth hurts some people. So I try to practice some tact and try and avoid certain conversations that are bound to offend.
It means that I MUST avoid the conversations to go offtopic and to avoid possible fights between members
Not doing a very good job of it, are you? Both topics you're covering here are rather off topic. :P
The way they look, their storylines
Style and story don't change the simple fact that "Cartoon" and "Anime" are just two different ways of saying "Animated show". Did you know that even in Japan, the things we call cartoons (Such as the Family Guy or Simpsons example) are called "Anime"? Anime is just the Japanese word for Cartoon. It's us westerners that have given it the connotation that it belongs exclusively to Japanese cartoons.
After that age, they lean more to Anime because most Anime isn't childish as cartoons are.
Go watch Adult Swim for a few nights, and then tell me if the cartoons they show are childish, or made for children.
Regardless, I thought we had ended both of these conversations by now.
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"Anime is just the Japanese word for Cartoon."
dude, anime is the Japanese word for "animation" not "cartoon" I even looked it up. Then I looked up "cartoon" and got: shitae, gihyou, ka-toxu-n (I don't wanna know...), giga, etc.
A cartoon is a type of animation. And before you get all defensive again, not ALL animations are cartoons.
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You're making me want to commit random acts of violence. }:|
This debate on semantics is pointless, and completely moronic. I quit.
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Thus proving the thesis of one "Doris Lessing" that (more often than not) an individual will eventually give in to the majority, given time.
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No, it's more like I've already made my case, and we're at a stalemate in that neither of us is going to accept the other's point of view in this matter, regardless of who is right and who is wrong, so there is simply no point in continuing it.
I'm not giving in because I am right, you have the right to be wrong, and continuing this any further is simply a lesson in futility.
So agree to disagree, keep babbling on with your stupidity, or just drop it. It's your choice. But DON'T try and paint me as some weak-willed ninny who's going give in and accept an incorrect belief just because I accept that I cannot win and any further effort is simply pointless.
A comment like the one you just made is no different than doing some imbecilic happy dance and going around bragging "I won I won!" like some complete douchebag.
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no no no no no no NO! I did not say that.
You really need to read her report to understand it but basically, her report as about how the individual will eventually give up even if they don't believe it to be true.
"A typical test, or experiment, on this theme goes like this. A group of people are taken into the researcher's confidence. A minority of one or two are left in the dark. Some situation demanding measurement or assessment is chosen. For instance, comparing lengths of wood that differ only a little from each other, but enough to be perceptible. The majority in the group--according to instruction--will assert stubbornly that these two shapes or lengths are the same length, while the solitary individual, or the couple, who have not been so instructed will assert that the pieces of wood are different. But the majority will continue to insist--speaking metaphorically--that black is white, and after a period of exasperation, irritation, even anger, certainly incomprehension, the minority will fall into line."
It's a very simple matter, one I'm sure you of all people could understand seeing as how much into psychology you seem to be.
"But DON'T try and paint me as some weak-willed ninny who's going [to] give in and accept an incorrect belief just because I accept that I cannot win and any further effort is simply pointless."
Hate to say it dude, but that's basically what happened.
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UruseiNeo and sidzero should meet in real life, for a good old discussion about... everything. xD
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It's a very simple matter, one I'm sure you of all people could understand seeing as how much into psychology you seem to be.
I understand the concept of reluctant acceptance and conformity, but I neither accept nor conform. I simply choose to accept a role as a silent minority over a rather insignificant matter, because the argument is simply unproductive.
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I just wanna clear up that her thesis doesn't mean that you disbelieve your original ideal.
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No, but it does mean accepting defeat. I do not accepting defeat.
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I just wanna clear this ahead of time that I'm not trying to take a shot at you but...
isn't quitting a form of defeat?
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Not quite. Quitting is walking away.
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It's just that quitting sounds like losing.
Like if I play a video game and I can't get passed a level, I quit (at least for a while). That would be losing, it certainly wouldn't be winning.
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Think whatever you want. Your opinion really doesn't matter.
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To Sidzero:
I believe in freedom. Whether it is about speach, of doing, of being, etc. Therefore, I believe everyone has the right to have an opinion and don't be harmed because of that opinion. Of course there are limits like "Every blue-eyed person is evil." -.-' This is an example of a stupid mind (from my perspective of course but I think many of you will agree with me on this one). So if you think you're right stick with your points of view because I'll stick with mines because I think I'm right. =)
On the offtopic issue I think it isn't too offtopic because discussing on the characters' orientation or whatever it's their "definition" from their fans. Therefore, I think it's ontopic.
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"There are two ways, if you don't pick my way you're stupid" is what Sidzero sounds like to me.
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A belief in freedom is something you and I share, then.
I wouldn't' say your example is an example of a "stupid mind", the word you're looking for is "discrimination". Discrimination isn't stupid, like I said, everyone does it because it's a social defense mechanism. It is how our minds are built, because man is a social creature. The problem is when we use those stereotypes to judge individuals, without knowing the individual.
"That person is gay, so he isn't going to judge me for being gay," or "That person is black, so he may try and rob me," or "That person is well groomed so he must be wealthy," or "That person is male so he's probably aggressive." These are all examples of stereotypes that, frankly, are perfectly normal thoughts for a person to have, no matter how non-discriminatory they may claim to be. It's acting on those thoughts that are what make the difference. Being friendlier to the gay person, or avoiding the attention of the black person, or begging for money from the wealthy person or appearing non-threatening to the male person, which of these are acceptable and which of these are unacceptable are simply cultural definitions. Does it make it right or wrong? Not really. But none of it's really fair.
And on the offtopic issue, the subject has strayed pretty far from discussing the character's orientation. Notice how you were talking about whether or not anime is a cartoon, or whether or not your gaydar is judging people. That's pretty far from discussing and defining characters. ;)
Not that I'm not just as guilty. I just wanted to point it out.
And UruseiNeo... Yes, I may think you're stupid for not agreeing with me. But that stupidity is limited to this matter alone. Can you claim to think me any less stupid for not agreeing with you? My point is more that "There are two ways, if you don't pick my way, I don't care and I'm not going to bother arguing the point anymore, because you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is."
And I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to instigate me. Goading me into continuing this pointless argument is one thing, but I'm starting to get the distinct impression that your attitude is intentionally insulting.
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That's ridiculous... There are probably thousands of people who think anime is a cartoon but that would never make them stupid. Most of these people don't watch anime anyway. The problem is that calling an anime a cartoon makes it sound very childish and thus some people who like anime tend not to express it cause they think people will think of them childish. In some cases people DO think of them childish.
I wouldn't call my attitude intentionally insulting, more like I like to argue with you cause it's so fun XD
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I'm sorry but some examples you gave, Sidzero, made me laugh. As I said, I don't agree with you on the "discrimination, stereotypes" phylosophy.
First: sexual orientation is part of someone. Just like his eye colour or what is his favourite food. Without it, he wouldn't be the same person that we know, just like Lum without the ability of flying or using electricity.
Second: I didn't start the cartoon vs anime discussion. I just expressed my opinion because if everyone's doing it, why can't I? I didn't say: "Hey guys let's discuss about what is the right english term for Anime? Japanese cartoons or cartoons? Maybe none. Share with me your views."
To UruseiNeo: I think we think alike. :)
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think alike in what? that we like to argue with Sidzero?
I don't know what it is... I don't go into debates with many users here. There's something about Sid that makes it so satisfying to debate against XD
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I guess it's just that he's good in phylosophy. My phylosophy teachers talks, talks, talks and we never understand a word of what he says so we are always like: "Huh-huh. Yeah. This is easy. Of course I understand. o.o"
But Sidzero, uses his phylosophy knowledge and ideas to convince us. Unfortunately for him, I'm still loyal to my thoughts.
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Here's a useful phrase when confronting sid's philosophic explanation/
paragraph essay:
"wakarimasen yo"
note: you can be substituted by "!"
note 2: "wakarimasen deshita (yo/!)" is also acceptable.
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Or... This is what I always say to my friends in this kind of situation:
Whatever you say, Miss/Mr. ?? ?? ?? ---> name of the person
In this case it would be:
Whatever you say, Mr. Sidzero.
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I thought you might wanna learn some more japanese phrases so I included that ^_^
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Thank you for your effort and kindness. ^^
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Wow... Nice...
Really you guys sure know how to make them long... (the posts ;D )
Well... I don't want to sound like I'm taking sides or something... but... I agree with Sidzero in... well... everything... (that he said here)
Because... 1st you look up animation in any dictionary... (because if you search anime you'll find out its an oleo-resin... ;D )
So what you do is search for animation... - the process of preparing animated cartoons.
And I searched a bit more and this is what I got...
Japanimation - a style of cartoon or animation made in Japan that focuses on futuristic themes and robotlike characters; also called anime.
Anime is occasionally referred to as Japanimation, but this term has fallen into disuse. Japanimation saw the most usage during the 1970s and 1980s, but was supplanted by anime in the mid-1990s as the material became more widely known in English-speaking countries. In general, the term now only appears in nostalgic contexts.
Well... call me nostalgic... but changing a word doesn't change its meaning... or its origin... and since the original word in Japan was Animation... (アニメーション ; animēshon) and by the definition I placed above... Animation = Animated Cartoon...
That's what I love about history... searching the past to find the answer...
I'm not saying you people are wrong... on thinking anime (Japanimation) and animated cartoons are diferent... well... I am... but... whatever... XD At least in the books... it means the same... but yeah... visualy they are diferent... but... You tell me how many animes are identical to each other? And Cartoons? Its all about styles... try learning something about drawing and stuff... forget about psycology... or whatever... you know that in the animation world that doesn't matter...
And btw... quitting isn't admiting defeat... most of the time I quit a game when I'm winning... but I sometimes have better things to do... XD
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Sorry, when I said that cartoons and anime have different styles, I should have been specific about the "qualities" they have.
eg. in an anime, you have things such as the sweat drop, kitsune eyes, that weird group of vertical lines that appears on a person's head (most often hen they get suddenly depressed) and of course, a very common one, the anger forehead symbol that looks like a bird's eye view of an intersection:
_| |_
_ _
| |
cartoons, tend to not have these, I don't think I've ever seen one that does (excluding shows that do anime parodies)
cartoons have THEIR OWN little special things, mot of which I'm not very good at explaining but you can find these easily in shows like roadruner and bugs bunny.
one quality that I can remember and define is when a character gets totally surprised and freaked out, their eyes will bulge out of the heads and their tongues will accompany them as best they can XD
anime does something similar but not the same, their eyes kinda bulge out but they don't completely pop out like in a cartoon.
unlike in anime, hair color doesn't seem to be unlimited in a cartoon (for people).
I don't recall seeing this in anime but I might be wrong: in a cartoon, a character's jaw can drop to the floor when they're shocked.
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one quality that I can remember and define is when a character gets totally surprised and freaked out, their eyes will bulge out of the heads and their tongues will accompany them as best they can XD
...I don't recall seeing this in anime but I might be wrong: in a cartoon, a character's jaw can drop to the floor when they're shocked.
Happens to me all the time... XD
But like I said... its all about styles... for example... the nose bleed... I'm seing a anime where they don't do the nose bleed... they bleed from their mouths... (don't ask me why... XD)
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some of the more serious anime tend not to use these qualities, and yet it is still painfully obvious that it's an anime.
I'm still thinking about what kind of quality makes it so easy to distinguish even without the things I mentioned... I know someone wants to say "it's the eyes" but in serious anime eyes tend to be less big, especially on males.
But the fact that you can distinguish whether or not something is an anime just by looking at it for a few seconds (even without the qualities mentioned so far) should be enough to label them as different.
It doesn't matter if the definition origin goes back to cartoon, hell cartoon goes back to some swedish or french word. It's still degrading to call anime a cartoon.
Similarly, calling a wolf a dog is kinda degrading if you think about it.
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Hey... My Wolf is a dog...
And Anime is the one said to be from a french word... l'animé... XD
Like I said... the books say one thing but visualy we know its totally diferent...
But imagine this... A japanese kid goes to USA (or whatever) and he doesn't know what anything about american culture... when he gets to his hotel room... turns on the Tv and sees... lets say... The Flintstones... I'm guessing the 1st thing he will say to his mother/father... is "Hey they have anime here too..."
Now... A american kid goes to Japan... hmm... I guess you know the rest... XD
1st thing he will say to his mother/father... is "Hey they have cartoons here too..."
Its like beer... there's lager and there's ale... when you drink you think you're drinking a beer... not a special type of brew
Imagine Animation... theres Japanese and there's... Rest of the World... XD
But with beer or animation you will always drink/see your favorite... and when going the bar... XD You will ask for example... "give me a glass of lager..."
I don't know if using Beer as a example will help... but I hope you get my point...
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I don't think kids can be used as an example. "kids" aren't really reliable in terms of knowing things. However, kids can be pretty smart at times, you know what I mean.
I can understand how they CAN be labeled as the same but seriously, they should be defined as two different types of animation.
Reboot is 3d animation. I can't call that a cartoon, that sounds very weird.
RedVsBlue is a machinima, a newer type of animation. That is 100% NOT A CARTOON.
So can't we just label these as subtypes under "animation" ?
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Anime: Animated Japanese animation or Japanese animated animation...
Doesn't make sense does it? Of course not... that's why they define it as Japanese animated cartoons...
They are diferent visualy but its impossible to find a definition for it... that doesn't relate it to cartoons...
RedVsBlue is a machinima (Machine Cinema)... yes it is... but I wouldn't call it a subtype of animation... I don't even want to go there...
Besides Machinima... are based on video games... obviously its not a cartoon... but if you see the series... you'll see their actions is of cartoon characters...
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Is there anyway we can move all this into its own topic? I think that at this point the subject has enough posts to be its own forum.
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:-\ I'll see what I can do...
Where did it all start??? ;D
Well its done... if you find any misplaced post that you think should be on the Character defining Topic tell me... and I'll move it back...
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I think it should be like this:
Animated Drawings (or something like that) is split in two: Anime and Cartoons. Anime - Japanese drawing animation (or something like that). Cartoons - USA, France, etc. drawing animation (or something like that).
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I think that's exactly what sidzero was trying to say: why should animated series from Japan have a diferent name compared to the animated series of the rest of the world?
As for me, I agree that animes are cartoons, though I don't like to call them just cartoons, it feels too vague. I only call them cartoons to people who have never heard of the word anime. xD
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I'm gonna say this again, just because it comes from Japan, doesn't mean it's labeled as "anime"
Thankyou for moving it ^_^ 6 pages worth XD
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There are probably thousands of people who think anime is a cartoon but that would never make them stupid.
I wasn't saying that it makes them stupid for thinking that. I was saying that it's stupid to think that, [/i]in my opinion[/i]. A person can be stupid about something and still be smart.
The problem is that calling an anime a cartoon makes it sound very childish and thus some people who like anime tend not to express it cause they think people will think of them childish.
I also think that people assuming that because something is a cartoon that it must be childish is stupid. Yes, many cartoons are aimed at children, but not all are. You think something like The Simpsons, any of the cartoons on Adult Swim, or most of the cartoons you find on the internet are aimed at children? Not quite.
It's all just an idiotic debate on semantics. Cartoons are, by my definition, animated shows. The dictionary agrees with me on this (at least in one of the definitions of "Cartoon").
I'm sorry but some examples you gave, Sidzero, made me laugh.
That was kinda the point. I like to inject humor into my arguments to keep the tone from getting too aggressive. The more aggressively someone defends an idea, the less open minded they become about it. True story.
sexual orientation is part of someone. Just like his eye colour or what is his favourite food. Without it, he wouldn't be the same person that we know
I don't disagree with that. Our choices and our preferences are among the things that define us as individuals.
But Sidzero, uses his phylosophy knowledge and ideas to convince us. Unfortunately for him, I'm still loyal to my thoughts.
Philosophy is my gift, what can I say? Why would it be unfortunate for me that you stand by your beliefs? I respect that. Like I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it is, and it doesn't matter to me what anyone believes whether or not they agree with me, because such things are unimportant. As long as I've accomplished making someone rethink their beliefs, whether or not they change them, then I've done what I mean to do.
Whatever you say, Mr. Sidzero.
Smile and nod....
Though I'd prefer if you listened, considered, and if you so choose, reject.
Really you guys sure know how to make them long...
I'm a fan of philosophical discourse. What can I say?
Japanimation saw the most usage during the 1970s and 1980s, but was supplanted by anime in the mid-1990s as the material became more widely known in English-speaking countries.
I think it had as much to do with a social move towards political correctness as anything.
Its all about styles... try learning something about drawing and stuff... forget about psycology... or whatever... you know that in the animation world that doesn't matter...
Why not learn it all? Actually, animation is something I learned at my second college, when I was studying video game design (the video game program had like 4 whole classes different from the animation program, so it covered both, really).
cartoons, tend to not have these, I don't think I've ever seen one that does (excluding shows that do anime parodies)
A different use of symbolism, a different beast does not make. It just means that they come from different cultures. By using your logic, one could say that a haiku is not a poem, which is simply not true.
Similarly, calling a wolf a dog is kinda degrading if you think about it.
And calling a wolf a dog is in no way similar. What this is, is more like calling a wolf a canine. Which is true, wolves are canines, as are dogs, foxes, coyotes, etc.
Imagine Animation... theres Japanese and there's... Rest of the World... XD
I like your examples in that post, this line in particular leaves me to make this comment. Just because one country does it best, does not mean that their product is dissimilar. Same could be said for a company, let's say Disney for this example:
What he's saying is equivalent to saying "Disney cartoons are such a better quality of cartoon that they are no longer cartoons and instead something different."
BTW, thank you for moving this into a new topic. Now that it's not so damned off-topic, I'm going to un-quit. :)
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I have nothing else left to say about this subject. I still think Anime and Cartoons are animated drawing but they're different. A lot different. Thank you Sidzero, UruseiNeo, Falling and Kroptik for sharing your thoughts with me. I guess these "fights" made me a better Otaku-in-the-making.
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Dear Sidzero...
I think anime is different from a cartoon, and even if it isn't by definition, it SHOULD be different.
You must understand, my dear sidzero... it is not the fact that Japan created an animation that makes it an anime... it is the features the show holds that classifies it as such, at least to the people like me and Cata who can really understand it.
On a side note, dunno where but it was said that Machinima's aren't animation? Well... video games have to be animated so... XD
Okay, if someone made a machinima using Dragoball Z Budokai, would that fit? (That would be a kickass machinima, just use the tool thingy to take out the states and you have a awesome fight)
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I understand the stylistic differences that set anime apart from other cartoons, but to say that it makes them no longer cartoons, that's just makes you a genre snob. All anime are cartoons. All cartoons are not anime. Anime is a specific kind of cartoon, but they're still cartoons.
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anime is a very specific... specific type of animation.
But hold on I wanna get an answer on the machinima thing
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Yes, anime IS a specific style of animation. But it's still an animation, so it's a cartoon.
Machinima on the other hand, is a much harder thing to debate. And debating whether or not machinima is a cartoon could open a whole lot of doors. It's not REALLY a cartoon, but it's certainly not live action, but it may be more like live action than a cartoon. But it IS an animation in a way, but by that same sense, we could say even live action movies are animation in a way, because animation is a series of pictures that when flashed in a quick sequence gives the illusion of motion. Just because it's made of photographs instead of drawings makes it somehow... different. I suppose this is much the same way someone like you can see anime as different than a cartoon, but is it really? With machinima the only thing that differs it from live action is that the actors are characters in a video game. But then, what makes it different from any other CGI animation (which would be considered a cartoon) other than the fact that CGI animations use environments that are specifically made for specific animations, whereas machinima uses environments that are not specifically made for that purpose.
Yeah, leave it to me to find a way to discover some sort of "animation philosophy".
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On a side note, dunno where but it was said that Machinima's aren't animation? Well... video games have to be animated so... XD
Okay, if someone made a machinima using Dragoball Z Budokai, would that fit? (That would be a kickass machinima, just use the tool thingy to take out the states and you have a awesome fight)
I never said Machinima isn't animation...
RedVsBlue is a machinima (Machine Cinema)... yes it is... but I wouldn't call it a subtype of animation... I don't even want to go there...
That's what I said... and what I was saying is that Machinima isn't a subtype of animation... Like you said... the game is animated... and like I said I don't want to go there... to the "subtypes of animation"...
Btw, I get the feeling that we're going around in circles... about all this...
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we are? hmm... how about this then, while on the topic of machinima, what do you need to record one?
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A video game and a computer?
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I mean what you need to first of all, connect them to record, and second remove radars and health bars and such.
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Hacks?
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I think there's a program or gadget...
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Hey... I dont know... go ask someone else if you want to know how to make one... XD
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It depends on what game you want to record.
Some games that are very suited to Machinima, for the PC at least, have a record feature. The Movies is one specifically that comes to mind (and was a pretty fun game too, if you like sim-type games).
Emulators, if you're using older games, often have record functions built in as well.
There's also a program you can find (I forgot what it's called offhand) that lets you record your computer's monitor output to an AVI file, but the files tend to be huge.
Console games are a little easier if you have a DV-R or a VCR hooked up between your console and your television, all you need is the appropriate blank media and to press the record button.
If you want to more, I would recommend going to machinima.com (http://www.machinima.com/), which is all about that kinda stuff.
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Is this how the argument between me and Sid finished with regards to Anime versus Cartoons?
Hmmm.... *light bulb*
Hehehe... New video project :)
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You almost shut him up when you said "Hold on. I want to see an answer to the machinima." xD
When I saw that, it cracked me up! xD
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I am going to create a new video!!!
"Anime Vs Cartoons"
Where me and my friend (first time doing a video with a co-host) will outline the vast contrast between the two. I've already written some notes:
Definition:
Genres:
Characters:
Themes:
Plot:
Backgrounds:
Detail:
Angles:
Content:
are the main topics
Example:
Content:
• Cursing
• Alcohol reference
• Blood
• Violence
• Partial Nudity
• Bloopers
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Please do so. I had a Youtube-argument during a few days because of it. A few people supported me in the end so, I won. xD
Anime:
parodies of other anime/tv shows
reference to japanese/chinese and other countries' cultures
funny/scary/cute/weird facial/body expressions
colourful characters
creativity
I can't think of anything else right now. o.o
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Im gonna try to avoid stuff like "japanese mythology" cause that's not really helping the argument. That kinda goes against the argument in that "anime is cartoons from japan"
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Call me whatever you want but I didn't understand what you said. >.<
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He means saying japanese mythology is something from anime will make people say that anime is just japanese cartoons, while he's trying to prove anime and cartoons are different.
Cata did point something out though: facial expressions.
Overreacting facial expressions is something typical from anime that you don't see in regular cartoons.
Two more things I can remember off the bat from anime is the sweatdrop and the fall (when the characters fall face-down, usually because of a bad joke by another character, you know what I mean ;)).
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I have some of that under Character:
• Eyes
• Hair
• Fingers
• Mouths
• Height
• Traits
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Oh and that hand sign they do when they fall down that means "I love you".
I don't think it would be a bad argument using japanese culture because anime portrays foreign culture, too. In Ranma there are chinese references. In School Rumble there are Mexican and English references. In Neon Genesis Evangelion there are German references. In Cowboy Bebop there are American references. So I think the argument cannot be "japanese culture" but "culture, whether it's japanese or foreign".
Religion is present in Anime but I think it relates to culture. Maria†Holic 's religion is christianism. In Urusei Yatsura, Dragon Ball, ... it's buddhism. In cartoons we don't see religion taking a part in it, unless it's Simpsons, American Dad and Family Guy.
These cartoons are made for grown-ups (Yay! cartoons aren't ONLY for kids!!!)
I think most Anime is for everyone, from little kids to old people. Of course there are exceptions such as Petshop of Horrors (really, really scary o.o) and of course hentai.
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http://www.animenation.net/blog/2001/06/06/ask-john-can-you-explain-anime-visual-gags/
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Anime and manga usually but not always have mature stories and situations and there is more attention to detail in anime and manga compared to western cartoons.